part 2640 of "it's not my fault i'm an ignorant american"
to clarify some things I said yesterday:
I'm not saying that the US didn't have much of a part in WWII,
quite the contrary. What i meant by "the USSR won WWII" was that
they used more man power than any other country, and killed more Germans
than any other country. And of course they also dealt the final blow by
capturing Berlin.
Perhaps the over all role they played was more key than the US's.
They didn't play the game clean either. But I think they werent
concerned with treating the Nazi's humanly becasue of the way they
were treated, and humanity wasnt a concern of their communism. Whether or
not the tortured Nazis is besides the point: they got the job done fast.
Russia had the manpower, the resources, and the Ideal location to dish out
parallel brutallity to the Nazis.
The USSR had it's own legacy in mind, and first was to eliminate the
Nazis, who were responsible for the deaths of over 23 MILLION slavs, more
than any other nation.
Another interesting fact, the Nazi's killed 64% of the USSR's war
calsulties. The USSR killed 64% of Germany's war calsuties.
I'm not trying to glorify communsim. What im sugesting is that if any
system of raw brutality and leadership had the power to stand up to
Hitler's fanatic facism, it was good, old fasion Soviet Communism.
About the US: The US answered the call to help stop the evil Nazis.
That's not an ignorant statement; it's just worded ignorantly.
The Soviets were the unwilling allies.
I do still think that Russia didn't just have its self in mind. Both
the USSR and the US knew they needed to work together to defeat the
Germans.
The US was more efficient in war. The USSR had more man power and more
determination.
As for acuzations of Soviet brutality to German prisnors:
The Russians were barly a rung above the Jews in Nazi prison camps. The
revenge came when hundereds of thousands of nazis died in soviet prisons
between 1945 and 1961.
When russia took berlin, if you were a nazi, your best bet was to run to
the Americans.
In conclusion, what I really meant to say that the USSR deserves more
credit for their role in WWII. They fought a more presonal war and did it
less civilized, but perhaps for number of reasons, they were more
sucessful. That is why I say the USSR won WWII.
Final question, repeated from yesterday:
Would Russia have been able to defeat Nazi Germany if they were not the
unionized collection of slavic states? (could they have won if they were
Russia and not USSR?)
<DISCUSS>
</DISCUSS>
posted by surgeonbob on Monday 10th July 2006, 22:32:48
after readin g all, I agree on most of what you say
the americans just delivered the "coup de grace"
and do not be mistaken; I am not American, Russian, or German
the last german POW were released in 1955, after successful negotiations
with russia by Adenauer. 474,967 died in captivity. 1.3 million went
missing after being captured by soviet forces. consult wikipedia for
further reference.
mission_upskirt (88.73.68.*) on Tuesday 11th July 2006, 05:55:21 (#36508)
0 (0)
moot point:
you say that nazi was responsible for 64% of the USSR's war
calsulties.
what caused the other 36% ? friendly fire ? i know that they shot
deserters, but i don't think it was that many.
to your actual question:
whether unionized or not, the soviets wouldn't have taken the eastern
front without the western allies. nazi germany was basically fighting a
multi-front-war. sure, they had the technology and the commanders/tactics
(rommel) at that time, but hitler was too much of a dickhead to realise
that he can't win a war fought at so many fronts. you german fellows
here probably know about the documentations on german tv done by guido
knopp, there they pointed out many times that in the end it were the
commanders in charge (like hitler and göring) that had no fucking clue at
all what they were doing and the lack of supplies (transports din't
reach the troops and the english / us bombed relevant industrial sites)
that made germany lose the war.
Communism is a tried and true system, a failed one at that. However it did
bring Russia's manpower and industry together for a period, the most
imperative of which was the war. Without it, the country would not have
stood a chance in the war, let alone be counted as a real threat by any
country. Tsarism equalled a weak government in the modern world at that
time, and it could not control the resources and manpower with the
brutality and relentless of the Stalinist communism era.
Though sadly, Stalin's purges hurt the USSR terribly. I always
admired the Soviets for doing so much with so few resources and such
poor leadership. It would've been amazing to see what that
country could've done with better "working conditions."
I think it´s hard to tell because during the Russian Winter the country has
been proven nearly inpenetrable as history shows. But I get what you mean,
it´s some very interesting thoughts put together.
what the fuck is wrong with you guys? who the fuck cares who won the war or
if they would have if the country was smaller etc? its war not a fucking
game of basketball! ...americans are so weird....
It's problematic to make statements like the above simply because of
the complexity of the war itself, and the large amount of nationalistic
dialogue that comes up in discussions like this. Often anecdotal evidence
is used to back wider claims, and statistics don't always paint a full
picture. For instance, many reputable sources will state that the Allies
as a whole would not have won were it not for the Lend Lease Act; however,
many of these sources are of western origin. While eastern sources never
underplay the role of western supplies to the eastern front, many will
claim it merely shortened the war, and that the USSR would have won anyway.
I think it may be a combination of both, but we'll never really
know.
As for the USSR being a union: it's hard to know, since the union was
relatively old (from the early 20s) so pre-war production and
industrialization might've had extra effects that were not specific to
war.
I have a question, and I think it's a good one:
"Would the nazis have won if..." "Would the USSR have won
if..."
...Exactly when were they going to STOP waging war? Like moeslum extremists
today, what purpose do they have to STOP the advancement?
part 2640 of "it's not my fault i'm an ignorant american"
